max asks:
My experience with game is zero, experience hitting on girls is zero as well. What is the best way to get started with game, if you have absolutely zero experience?
doug answers:
Read the books “The Mystery Method” and Roosh’s “Bang”. Roosh has a cheaper ebook version at his site RooshV. Read Roissy’s game oriented archives. Read Krauser’s day game method stuff at his KrauserPUA blog.
This is the first thing I recommend you read today. This post at Roissy’s.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
Read the comments too, cause DfH has some more good stuff in them, as do others.
Then read the Agree and Amplify post from the same “Relationship Game Week” series of posts. It’s the previous day. Oh, here:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/relationship-game-week-agree-and-amplify/
gmac answers:
Buy bang by roosh. You can find it here:
http://www.bangpickupguide.com/
It’s a practical guide to approaching and seducing women. It will teach you everything you need to know from improving your confidence to “what” and “how” to talk to women and it intended for guys with little to no game.
Also check out these blogs:
i personally think that the lovedrop 13 cd audio series is the best introduction to the fundamentals of game theory. i was never that impressed by bang, in fact, but that’s another topic entirely.
max — or anybody else — send me an email and i will send you an email back inviting you to my box.net account so that you can download the lovedrop audio series.
i also would recommend the direct, honest, raw, naked day approach — a combination of yohami, krauser, gunwitch, and mode one. this method requires a strong inner core — true, solid inner game — and while it may not be the best approach for beginners, i am convinced that it is the most successful form of game in the long run, and should thus be your ultimate goal.
for yohami, read the ZM files, these are the tabs at the top of my page.
for krauser, read his day game model as a starting point.
for gunwitch, email me for his audio mp3, and print out his essay.
for mode one, buy his book.
don’t be afraid to spend some money on this endeavor. cause ultimately, like robert pirsig says in zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, the motorcycle you are working on is yourself.
UPDATE:
i would also read everything on my site or any other site regarding frame control. in my opinion, frame control is the essence of game, and the essence of life.
also, print this out and staple it to your forehead:
The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon
UPDATE:
fyi what i mean by the pirsig quote is that ultimately, game is not about getting laid, game is about becoming a better man.
stronger, happier, more successful, with more options, and more power.
Instigate, Isolate, Escalate.
Get in shape.
I think that “Bang” might still be best for a complete newbie to learn pick-up.
It has one huge advantage: NO THEORETICAL BAGGAGE.
Its very funny, practical and honest.
I started reading about Game as a way of understanding relationships, which lead me to Roissy’s blog.
Horrifying and fascinating in equal measure.
With Yohami’s stuff, its no wonder you call him the Zen Master.
If you get it, you get it. If you don’t, you don’t.
I think the average man reading it would just go “huh?”
the first time i went to your site, i thought, “YES!!!” this guy has it.
what i like about Yohami is that he hates the manipulation of PUA. i don’t like it either, seems phony. i want to be able to attract women by being ME.
and i see that you encourage an honest approach also. an approach that seems to tell guys, “make yourself a better man, a man a woman would WANT to be with.”
thats a philosophy i can support 100%.
Riv,
I bet you don’t like bang because it’s too straight forward, without “higher order” PUA stuff. I think you enjoy complexity and spirituality when it comes to game.
My model is kinda complex for a noob. Probably better avoiding the subtleties of it for the first 200 approaches.
I support that 100% as well. Real honesty in a man is immensely rare, and in my opinion, super alpha, as opposed to run of the mill average guy who lies and manipulates to get what he wants, because he’s afraid of who he really is.
Here are some key game concepts you have to learn. So look out for them in your readings:
1) Overcoming approach anxiety. Pretty much you have to a) force yourself to just do it; b) have a “who cares” attitude towards rejection; c) realize in the beginning especially but always to an extent it’s a numbers game (not all girls are attracted to exactly the same things, girls are in different moods, girls are in different relationship status or dissatisfaction with what they have that night and so on). Overcoming it is easier when you have some of the tools below at least in your head, if not yet in your “muscle memory”.
2) Learning to neg. Rivelino’s set of collected links to posts describing his seduction of Crystal is quite good at explicating this, partly because he’s done a lot of reading up on game, but also partly because he’s so marveling in his descriptions of what he did about how well it worked. Also he’s very detailed. Negging is in essence playful teasing, with a greater or lesser degree of neg (put down) zing to the teasing. It’s critiquing her usually also combined with some compliment as well, in a way that doesn’t go to her core, and is fixable, or doesn’t indicate your complete non interest. Just a show me, you’re not THAT hot kind of frame. It’s about establishing psychosexual dominance over the girl in a way that she welcomes and is attracted to. The hotter, younger (well college age and up) and more in demand the girl, the more need for zing. No, scratch that, young 20s out of college working in professional jobs in the big coastal cities need the most negging of all, cause there’s the most competition for them, by guys of a wide variety of ages. College girls at least in the big state Unis usually outnumber the guys by a lot, as much as by a 3/2 ratio, and tend to only be hit on by fellow underclass guys, for various reasons. (Though a happy hunting ground for you quite possibly if one’s in your burg.)
3) Learning to DHV (demonstrate higher value) and build comfort. This is “just” (it’s not so easy for many guys) talking to her and even more listening to her (focus on emotions and personal revelations and encourage them) in a way that demonstrates both that you get her at a deep level, and that you have high value. Stories of adventures you’ve had, especially manly one, other accomplishments, and so on are gold, but not told in a boasting, try hard way. Let slip, illustrate a point with a personal anecdote of this nature, etc.
4) Learn about push pull. Basically push is 2) above, white pull is 3) above. Alternate. If she’s hot (as most entitled American girls think they are if they’re a 6 or even a 5 and above), she only wants pull after she’s felt push. Cause otherwise she’ll think you’re beneath her and far too easy. Push establishes emotional/sexual attraction, while pull establishes comfort, warm feelings, and trust. Girls need some combination of both, varying on the hotness of the girl relative to how she’s perceiving you, and to some extent on simply her own personality.
5) Learn about calibration to the particular girl. How to read her signs. How much push and how much pull. How much asshole and how much guy who gets her.
6) Realize that girls want an emotional roller coaster. Some more than others, but almost all girls more than most guys. They want drama. They want to feel they might lose you. Then that you really dig them. Or more accurately they are most sexually attracted by these things even though they consider them bad to one degree or another and want to brand them and guys good at them as morally wrong, bad guys, and so on. They are most sexually attracted when they have to chase you, but want to emotionally protect themselves and tame you, by leading you into being more beta, non dominant, which our American feminist culture schools them in doing incessantly, at home, in school, and through the entertainment media. (It also schools you to go all “yes dear”, “you’re probably right”, “ok, ok” and so on, for the peace and harmony of any relationship, which decreases her sexual attraction for you, while also making her feel more secure, and eventually bored and dissatisfied.)
7) Learn how to sexually escalate. This is how you fuck close. This is heavily about two things. Your confidant and non needy sexual intensity, and getting HER to chase you. Tease her with your kisses, which you pull back from, getting her to want to kiss you, and go for your mouth when you get close the next time. Stare intensely into her eyes. Be high energy.
It’s still always gonna be better if you’re high status, charismatic, tall, handsome and rich, than the opposite of those things, but game, or psychosexual playful dominance, matters a whole lot too. It can tip the balance. Also learning game can make you more charismatic than you previously were, especially if part of the reason for your non dominance over women was thinking that was evil. For many though learning game isn’t just a cookbook exercise. It’s also partly a belief system conversion.
Manipulation isn’t the issue.
All powerful people manipulate, and most girls do constantly.
Dishonesty is the issue.
Higher forms of game eschew it.
However considering how much girls are dishonest, I really think guys in early stages should worry about it a whole lot less.
They deserve it.
However, it isn’t ultimately the most effective route to e.g. harem management.
Girls deserve it in our feminist American culture that is.
Can you tell I detest American feminism?
[…] so here is the grand master on key game concepts, from the comments. […]
indeed.
i think every man could understand this, if he just opened his mind, and actually WORKED at understanding it.
i consider myself very smart, and very intuitive, and very open minded, but i often have to read what he wrote several times, and ask follow up questions, before i really understand what he is saying. in our culture, we are not accustomed to reading deep truths.
“I think you enjoy complexity and spirituality when it comes to game.”
haha you know me well. definitely. i love sophistication and exaltation in everything i do.
bang misses on some huge topics, though. false disqualifiers and frame control, for example.
and i still remember his line about begging to use her bathroom in order to get into her apt. wtf??? that is so pathetic, i am glad i never tried that line. jesus, we are men here, not rats.
anyway, i am going to read it again, because he does have some excellent points. there is a reason he is so successful.
at the same time, what i love most about roosh is his social criticism. that stuff is gold.
krauser, your model is very complex — and you make it look so easy, you bastard — but i would recommend your website to every beginner so that he says the unlimited power of game.
it is like a fucking super power.
just being able to go up to any random girl, on the street, in the middle of the day, and fucking her two hours later in the bar bathroom — that is a super power.
in fact, it’s THE BEST super power.
of course, you don’t do this every time — nobody does — BUT IT IS POSSIBLE.
and your whole attitude is, i am the man, she is the woman, sex is natural and normal and we all love sex and hey, let’s go fuck in this bathroom over here, even though i just met you two hours ago — love it.
so your whole attitude is similar to yohami’s in that you are proud to be a man, proud to have a cock, and you have no shame or guilt or fear or insecurities about wanting to fuck a sexy eastern european teenage girl.
the opposite, you are doing her a favor. you are adding value to her day and to her life.
that is huge.
in contrast, a lot of the american puas — roosh and roissy, in particular — see game as stealing from the girl, manipulating her, and then laughing at her later.
they come from an angry, hateful point of view, which i don’t like.
then again, that is probably because they are surrounded by american girls.
🙂
Feminism is a terrible -ism, just like most -isms.
But I’m talking about ideals here.
“I think that “Bang” might still be best for a complete newbie to learn pick-up. It has one huge advantage: NO THEORETICAL BAGGAGE.”
yeah, that is similar to what ASF said.
yeah, maybe i like the theoretical side, and so i am biased.
still, no false disqualifiers??
false disqualifiers are HUGE.
Thanks man. and I think you’ve nailed the difference in frame between what alot of us London guys do compared to the more old-school US stuff.
Game for beginners:
Rule #1 Treat yourself with respect.
Rule #2 Keep her guessing.
Rule #3 Don’t be mean.
also read my post The Score http://attractionreaction.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/chapter-7-the-score-2/
think of things you can do to improve yours
also go to http://www.fastseduction.com/
tons of free stuff
these three rules seem vaguely interesting, and maybe just need more explanation. explain in more detail, and if i am convinced i will put it on the front page.
for example, “treat yourself with respect” sort of sounds like “i am my own salvation”, but not really.